Texture Enhancement Project

Have a question, suggestion, or comment about Aleph One's features and functionality (Lua, MML, the engine itself, etc)? Post such topics here.
SpeedyG
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A couple of questions about the stated topic:

1. Is this still going on?

If so, I am a graphic designer and would like to submit some newly made enhancements in my free time for this. After playing through a few levels of M2 recently, it seemed as though some of the resampled textures had a little bit too much of the same PS filters on them (Plastic Wrap, Cracquelure, etc.). It tends to hurt the eyes a little. I'd like to "smooth" them out a bit more. As much as can be done with such an old game.

I really like what was done with M1A1 project. I would like to try and get the other 2 in line with that with some help.

2. Could someone help me test them?

I have Forge and Anvil, but it will take me some time to get used to them again. For that matter I am not sure if these 2 programs are still viable with Aleph One. I suppose I should read up on that.
Anyway, for time's sake and efficiency, I could send the tester(s) the shapes file, picts, jpegs, whatever for you to put into the game and test them out for me.

Anyway, any info on this would be great. In the meantime I will continue to play catch up and read more about it when I come across it.
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Sam Lowry
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I would be very happy to see more M2/M1A1 work.
It is great to see some/any interest in them again.

Read up on Aorta (the Aleph One Replacement Texture Accessory) to make RGB/DDS textures.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/aorta

Some other tools you may want to look at.
http://webwonks.org/Marathon/utilities/aleph1.html

All the best with your textures.
shawn(at)fsu: My nephew wants to start doing game modding ...
hux: If he likes Halo, try modding for Marathon, the older Bungie fps game.
interkin3tic: Noooo!!! I did that in high school and look where I am now: SLASHDOT!!!
........
W: it's long and obnoxious, i like it
SpeedyG
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SpeedyG wrote:A couple of questions about the stated topic:

1. Is this still going on?

If so, I am a graphic designer and would like to submit some newly made enhancements in my free time for this. After playing through a few levels of M2 recently, it seemed as though some of the resampled textures had a little bit too much of the same PS filters on them (Plastic Wrap, Cracquelure, etc.). It tends to hurt the eyes a little. I'd like to "smooth" them out a bit more. As much as can be done with such an old game.

I really like what was done with M1A1 project. I would like to try and get the other 2 in line with that with some help.

2. Could someone help me test them?

I have Forge and Anvil, but it will take me some time to get used to them again. For that matter I am not sure if these 2 programs are still viable with Aleph One. I suppose I should read up on that.
Anyway, for time's sake and efficiency, I could send the tester(s) the shapes file, picts, jpegs, whatever for you to put into the game and test them out for me.

Anyway, any info on this would be great. In the meantime I will continue to play catch up and read more about it when I come across it.
Very cool. Much thanks for the links. I will head that way now to check them out.
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screamingfool
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yeah, that would be awesome. I don't use the hi res textures for infinity because they're pretty unfaithful (in color especially) I'd be happy to organize the files into the structure mml uses to place them in game and test them out.
Last edited by screamingfool on Apr 18th '07, 17:24, edited 1 time in total.
SpeedyG
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Well I placed my 1st Texture within the Aleph project yesterday. Actually it was just a skeleton (sketch if you will) of one of the Jjaro walls to get the placement correct, but only after some trial and error.

Learning the MML was easy enough, but the problem I am having is knowing the exact numbers for the Texture collection(s). Too be honest, one of the only pages I found on it was a bit more confusing than helpful.

Would it be easier for me to download the source code to find out exactly where in the code the texture libray is?


Once I get few textures rendered, I will post them here with some before and afters to see what you guys think.

Thanks guys.
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treellama
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You can count them in Anvil, start at 0 (Interface), count down to get the collection. Start at 0 and count across to get the shape.

For Infinity, the collections are 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 (water, lava, sewage, jjaro, pfhor)
Last edited by treellama on Apr 19th '07, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

Hakvil! Has the collection number and name!
SpeedyG
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Doh!

I suppose I assumed since the engine was "updated" it rendered Anvil obsolete.
Thank you very much. Hehe.

Time to get crackin' now.

Thanks again.
SpeedyG
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As promised, a sample of where this is going (hopefully not straight to the can).


This is the original texture Bungie created for M2, resampled to 256 x 256 to enhance some of the detail.


This is the quick sketch piece that I used to help me get the positioning within the game.


And, finally, a further revised version of the pillar piece with the glyphs on it. It is still not finished.

So, do you think I am on the right track so far?

Let me know what you guys think so far.

Oh yeah, please let me know if the images are too large. The 2 recreations are both at 512 x 512, but still might be a bit hefty for the forums. Let me know and I will reduce the sizes next time for posting.
Last edited by SpeedyG on Apr 20th '07, 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
Samus

It is good, but the reason I don't use Texture enhancement packs is that 1) my computer sucks and 2) they are drawn to far off the originals. Although this is based from the texture, it seems to changed. Thats what I think though. Maybe you could alter the colours to get the green just right. Any image size is fine really. I would quite like to see some 2000x2000 packs to run on my mactel that I am getting soon, Then I can have top graphics, TGI. And try playing marathon and WoW with my wiimote :D

What was done with the older packs was that they were drawn in 1024 or 512. then they made another pack called Medium quality (something like that) and resized em down to 512 or 256. then low qual to 256 and 128.
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Sam Lowry
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Great work.
Please ask Treellama about using Aorta/A1- formats, compression, current and future sizes.
shawn(at)fsu: My nephew wants to start doing game modding ...
hux: If he likes Halo, try modding for Marathon, the older Bungie fps game.
interkin3tic: Noooo!!! I did that in high school and look where I am now: SLASHDOT!!!
........
W: it's long and obnoxious, i like it
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screamingfool
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its very bright, shiny even. i can see the flickta standing in front of it and squirreling away pieces of it in their nests. But seriously, the detail and execution are great, but the saturation and value are really different than the original and that's the reason a lot of us don't use the current enhanced textures. On a side note, i've always read the sph't text on that texture as etched in rather than embossed.
SpeedyG
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Thank you for the input guys.

As far as those glyphs go, I saw them as being chiseled out rather than concave. If I'm not mistaken, Waterloo Park map is home to the Ancient Sph't. I could be wrong, but what I see is a sort of Ancient society similar to the Egyptians or Greeks even with far more advanced technology. Sort of mix of those features if you will. Interpereting the shapes within the old pixelated textures is a guess at times.

Keep in mind that the larger texture displayed was a quick 5 min deal just to get it's placement right. All of the "skeletons" or "frames" will be to get the correct placements within the game. The colors will come in with an eye dropper and brush(es) later. It will be a long and tedious process, but rest assured I will come as close to the original colors as I can.

Thank you for the input guys. Hopefully I will have a some finished textures to look at by next week.
Last edited by SpeedyG on Apr 20th '07, 17:46, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
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Are you working on these on Windows or a Mac? One thing I've always wanted to see, Aleph One now supports custom mipmaps. This means different textures at different distances; i.e., you could have a very detailed 1024x1024 texture up close, but farther away (128x128) they could be less detailed. One thing that bugs me about the high-res textures is the detail is too high at a distance, because the 128x128 mipmap that gets used is just a scaled down version of the 1024x1024 original.

Aorta is not capable of editing custom mipmaps, but nvidia makes some tools for Windows which can do it.

Edit: Oh, yeah, your sketches look pretty good :)
Last edited by treellama on Apr 20th '07, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
SpeedyG
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Treellama wrote:Are you working on these on Windows or a Mac? One thing I've always wanted to see, Aleph One now supports custom mipmaps. This means different textures at different distances; i.e., you could have a very detailed 1024x1024 texture up close, but farther away (128x128) they could be less detailed. One thing that bugs me about the high-res textures is the detail is too high at a distance, because the 128x128 mipmap that gets used is just a scaled down version of the 1024x1024 original.

Aorta is not capable of editing custom mipmaps, but nvidia makes some tools for Windows which can do it.

Edit: Oh, yeah, your sketches look pretty good :)
That is a good idea. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to achieve that either. Hehe. You're right too, the skele frames look too shiny, even at a distance. It might be possible with a little opengl fog configuration though. I will look into that. I'll look into the mipmapping as well.

As far as computers go, I only have Macs. Both here and at work.

Much thanks.

P.S.- Love Aorta. It's been doing me wonders with getting the textures into the game quickly. Awesome program.
Last edited by SpeedyG on Apr 20th '07, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
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treellama
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Well, you've got me curious now. Can you do this for me? When you get a texture made, make a nice high detail version at 1024x1024 for right up close, and then make a less detailed version at 128x128 that looks good at the normal distance. I'll smash them together with nvidia tools and make some screenshots showing the difference between using the 1024x1024 at all distances, vs the 1024 close up and the 128 farther away.
SpeedyG
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Treellama wrote:Well, you've got me curious now. Can you do this for me? When you get a texture made, make a nice high detail version at 1024x1024 for right up close, and then make a less detailed version at 128x128 that looks good at the normal distance. I'll smash them together with nvidia tools and make some screenshots showing the difference between using the 1024x1024 at all distances, vs the 1024 close up and the 128 farther away.
Yeah, sure. I may have at least one or two done by this weekend. I can slip them to you. I'd be curious to know myself now.
SpeedyG
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Finally, here is another before and after:


Here is Bungie's original, resampled to 256 x 256.



And the after I recreated. I think the colors on this one are pretty close. I opted to leave out the green specks for now but can still be put into the original file at anytime. I have to say this one looks really good in the game so far.
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kineticturtle
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Yes yes! I like this a lot. The color sample and sheen are much more accurate in this set, and like screamingfool, I think that's the most important thing (or at least the thing that the current set has messed up much worse).
I feel that it lacks a bit of the "grunge" of the original image; part of that is in the green specks, but most of it is the smudgy dark splotches I guess.

Anywho, great work, you've got me excited about this. The mipmap thing sounds great too, I hope you and treellama can work that out...

edit: I think the real reason it doesn't look "grungy" enough is that all the lines are very straight. In the original, they look more chiseled and aged.
Last edited by kineticturtle on Apr 21st '07, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Zott
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The shading looks very close to the original. The only thing that kind of annoys me is that there are parts that stick out when they should instead stick in. If you shift the shadows to the opposite side, this could be easily fixed.
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SpeedyG
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Zott wrote:The shading looks very close to the original. The only thing that kind of annoys me is that there are parts that stick out when they should instead stick in. If you shift the shadows to the opposite side, this could be easily fixed.
Actually, they are concave, but I can see how you would see them as sticking out or embossed, it's sort of a trick of the eye. The light source is shining from the bottom up generally. Try looking at it from that perspective.
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I think your falling into the trap that others have been falling into for quite some time.

Enhancing a texture shouldn't nessecarily mean just making it sharper and cleaner looking. I believe your textures would be perfect in a scenario that takes place before the Pfhor came to Lh'owon and F***ed it all up.
In my opinion, your textures would make the ultimate M2 texture enhancement if you took what you have now and sand blasted them with a massive sander. And the sander should be on FIRE.
SpeedyG
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MoppyPuppy wrote:I think your falling into the trap that others have been falling into for quite some time.

Enhancing a texture shouldn't nessecarily mean just making it sharper and cleaner looking. I believe your textures would be perfect in a scenario that takes place before the Pfhor came to Lh'owon and F***ed it all up.
In my opinion, your textures would make the ultimate M2 texture enhancement if you took what you have now and sand blasted them with a massive sander. And the sander should be on FIRE.

I get the general idea from other posts I read from yourself that you are generally an unhappy person. So you post here and rip on the others out of your own insecurities. All criticism is welcome, though. If you can do better, please, by all means, show me so.
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SpeedyG wrote:I get the general idea from other posts I read from yourself that you are generally an unhappy person. So you post here and rip on the others out of your own insecurities. All criticism is welcome, though. If you can do better, please, by all means, show me so.
Thats usually because I'm under attack during said posts.
SpeedyG wrote:So you post here and rip on the others out of your own insecurities.
Yeah, now I'm unhappy. I made a suggestion, I said nothing insulting at all!
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I can't believe I'm siding with Moppy here...
I get the general idea from other posts I read from yourself that you are generally an unhappy person. So you post here and rip on the others out of your own insecurities. All criticism is welcome, though. If you can do better, please, by all means, show me so.
That may be the case, but consider his criticism, which is actually pretty legitimate and not very ad hominem at all. By "blasting them with a sander," I don't think he meant they were ugly and should die, but rather that they need the wear-and-tear that would be natural given that the structures are thousands of years old. In fact, I agree with him; the textures shouldn't be shiny and beautiful, they should be dinged up and rusty and cracked. The other project (Total Texture Enhancement Project by Tim Vogel) had the same problem: everything was perfect, which is just flat-out wrong.
Thats usually because I'm under attack during said posts.
That's because most of your posts have little content and are rather aggressive.
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